Too much sleep from CBD oil?

[Affinity]

GABA is pretty common and a part of gabapentin (aka Neurontin) for example, which is often given for FM. It generally helps to calm things down so it's probably worth a try. I liked it when I have taken it in the past.

I know I mentioned the Fatigue Super Conference on another thread. In their free gifts is a move about recovery from FM/ME/CFS and I watched it earlier this week and one of the things they discussed in the move was the feeling of being "wired but tired" which I think matches what you are talking about. They didn't give a complete solution to that issue but I do think it was worthwhile to watch the movie and hear other people's stories.

Personally I have had a rough week with my sleeping, even with good sleep hygiene, but I think that's one thing we have to keep looking at is how to continue to balance our needs with what is going on in our lives at any given moment.

 

[JayCS]

Well, Creola.... I'm a bit flabbergasted....
I've taken GABA plus Glutamine plus Passioflora 3x now , and after 30 really bad days (1 moderate one) I've had 3 really good ones...
I wasn't planning on this combination, but felt like making sure and spontaneously found this combo. Don't know of course if it's necessary, as glutamine and passioflora didn't do anything alone.
In the first night I took it after dozing a few hours, was up 8x, had a few side effects, but - had a good day: no stiffness, no seizure, no drowsiness or numbness, no further side effects aside from tingling, bowel movement & stronger pulse at the beginning, no belly ache, no breathing problems. I was able to work 4h30 (live incl. commuting & digi), didn't have time for table tennis, but cycling and running a bit was quite OK. At work I did have my typical mask-problems after talking a bit - altho only to single people, making me feel feverish.
In the 2nd & now 3rd night I took it almost like recommended (30'), 60' before actually being in bed.
Hardly any side effects: dry mouth, slightly feverish-squeamish. The 2nd night slight belly pressure-pain. The dry mouth was painful, different to the one I got from amitriptyline or other things. GC dry mouth gel relieved it immediately both nights and after that sipping soy drink was sufficient.
But yesterday I cd do quite a lot. I was able to work 3h (digi) and jump around with my grandchild in the evening like I haven't been able to for ages - not perfect, but much better. and was extremely fit & concentrated at table tennis (8:0), cd've done 2 more, that's really neat. I gave it 90% for "feeling well" and "1" for pain - maybe a bit rose-red, but a great improvement.
And getting up today has been very good up to now... So:

 

[JayCS]

GABA is pretty common and a part of gabapentin (aka Neurontin)

Yeah, part, but the more natural one of the two. Gabapentin is 'only' an analog, a 'chemical' derivate if you will, which I haven't been wanting to take because of the far higher amount and severity of side effects.

Evidence-based-wise it's not understood if/why/how GABA itself works, it shdn't really get into the brain (over the BBB) and there isn't really enough research. Altho it probably reduces excitability and muscle tone, which is exactly what I've often thought and influence by my various relaxation techniques.

Thanks for the wired-but-tired video recommendation...

I really hope you're going to come into a better patch now.

I wasn't really thinking of being able to get back to work next week, but now I probably will be...

Well - Ashwagandha is a nightshade! Who'd've thought! Thanks for that one too. Gets on my nerves when such basics are omitted, even on pages like healthline.
Wdn't keep me off trying it, as I have no detectable problems with at least mild peppers (yellow), but if I feel the need, despite GABA, and the endocrinologist says OK, I'd know where any side effects of it are coming from...

 

[JayCS]

Well GABA has actually been working well almost every day for over 2 weeks now, so I've been feeling 90%-ish!

Monday, yesterday and today weren't quite as good, sort of 70-80%. Possibly due to habituation, meaning I'd need to increase the dose.
I've researched quite a bit more. A few holistic people, incl. a functional doc, have been saying that if it does cross the blood-brain-barrier I must have a leaky brain, which is associated with leaky gut. But in a more recent interview (2020) that same doc conceded that it may be working differently. And pubmed-studies are even conceding that it may get thru the BBB, at least does seem to be work for some somehow, and it's just it's not reproducable how and when. The molecules are said to be far bigger than the nano-size normally possible. That makes me think that it can't be crossing the BBB, otherwise I would have an extremely leaky brain and a lot of other things would be wrong with me, because lots more things would be crossing it. So I rather think it is not working on my brain, it is working on a lower level - praps higher than just the muscle tone itself, but not the whole brain. Not sure on this, but maybe amygdala?

Looking back in my blog CBD oil and melatonin were definitely the cause of 4 weeks of sick leave, due to extreme drowsiness and exhaustion btw, I kind of overreacted. No way am I going to try them again, no other similar product either, that reaction was much too harsh..

 

[JayCS]

I have been told to avoid nighshades and ashwagandha is a nightshade and so I cannot take it now,

Since I have no problems with bell peppers I thought I'd try it, seeing the many benefits, altho I've read it can take days to months to work. I've taken it twice and now I'm up with one hell of a burning aching stomach, read thru the rare, but possible side effects: Increases stomach acidity incl. reflux, heartburn and stomach ache... - But I was warned, thanks to you!

I'm still grateful for the GABA (with magnesium and passionflower). (Since I got more focal seizures than average I'm going to leave the glutamic acid, since that's the only one of these 3 that would increase them, and the others are used against epilepsy. Glutamic acid is the one I've taken down from 2 to 1x290mg already.)

These are the continuing results of 4 weeks of GABA. From what I've read (tons), habituation may come. I take 1x750mg in the evenings. Some holistic therapists suggest starting with 125mg sublingually and increasing.

1. Stiffness after keeping in one position, e.g. sleeping, has been almost gone ever since taking it, even on ‘bad’ days, visibly as well. Only there a bit more than normal after sitting on the floor. Interesting cos it begs my idea that the muscle & tendon stiffness might lead to Ache and fatigue, which are better but not gone. Makes my twist-stretch-hack completely unnecessary, unless I just feel like stretching.
2. Stiffness from overdoing it, e.g. when walking up stairs / needing to take a lift has been almost gone too, occasionally in the evenings.
3. Sleep stints much longer (2-4h instead of 1-2h)/breaks much less (2-3 instead of 5-7), under an hour (instead of 1-2h), every night, but still there, still long sleep of about 9h. Ear plugs & eye mask still necessary. Still one longer break almost every night. Deeper, more refreshing, less disturbances, distractions, pains… so almost none of the “waker-stoppers” necessary any more.
4. Wide awake, no drowsiness in the daytime. altho very drowsy (eyes half closed) upon waking up, but I can get myself to wake up much faster, and then feel refreshed. Decision if I still need to sleep or not faster. No need for a nap, hardly any itchy eyes or feverishness (30’ once in a few days). Exception: April 26th, praps due to first & different live work.
5. Ache quite a bit better & less, but still distinctly there after 1-2h of exertion. Problems on Apr 30th, May 1st, May 3rd, improved again after taking only 1 glutamic acid pill. Arms still hurt a bit when getting up.
6. Exhaustibility is quite a bit better & less, but still distinctly there. No longer problems with staircases. Rest after exertion definitely necessary, but not quite as soon and not quite as long, e.g. 30’ after 2h of exertion instead of 1h after 1h of exertion.
7. Energy is quite a bit better & less, but still not considerably better. I am able to do a ‘7’-workout every day in 25’’ stints instead of only several times a month, but not the full 30’’ or 12’ altogether, and 6-8 games of table tennis every day, winning 5/6:3/2 but not 10 games winning 8/9:2/1 like in the best times of the last months.
8. Bladder pain down from 80% of the time since the fibro full flare (“Oct” 2019), pain 3-6 to 20%, pain 1-3. Almost completely gone at least since evening of May 4th.
9. Pee frequency down to completely normal, even if I drink a lot in the evenings, my bladder is just fuller, but urgency signals normal, which hasn’t been that way since about 10 years (problems at work and in holidays).
10. Long mask wearing less of a problem
    
    Almost no side effects since April 29th:
11. Weight gain seems slight up to now. 79kg Apr 20th, normally around 80 (after the amitriptyline weight gain went down, used to be around 77kg). Seemed 83 May 3rd, but 80 May 5th.
12. Drama dreams the first week, now gone, but still sometimes vivid, if I can still catch them (May 6th 5:20 fairy tale town, where silver-clad pixies shot down out of their house and sped down the street, strange houses, buy a believe-pizza: no, didn’t want to; drank 1 pint of mineral water in one go to test my bladder - eh, no, in that dream).
13. Dry mouth at night the first week, plus May 6th.
14. Prickly lips & face for 5’ minutes the first 1-2x, then gone.
15. Tingly-fluey feeling all over, esp. inside mouth the first 1-2x, then gone.
16. Strong bowel movement the first time, then gone.
17. Nose clotting differently the first 2 weeks, now better.
18. Nose bleed 1.5x in the first week, then gone.
19. Fluey-ill-feverish at night a few times in the first week, now gone.
20. 2 stronger, 2 small focal seizures on April 23rd, altho GABA is sposed to stop seizures. Praps from the glutamic acid, or just my normal amount.

 

[JayCS]

I've taken it twice and now I'm up with one hell of a burning aching stomach, read thru the rare, but possible side effects: Increases stomach acidity incl. reflux, heartburn and stomach ache... - But I was warned, thanks to you!

Oh dear - the ashwagandha sure is doing a 'good' job... my stomach hasn't recovered from its attack yet, now it's been playing the IBSD-game with my gut, finally it's gnawing & stinging my anus - just like tomatoes - so my bowels definitely agree: this is a "pretty deadly" nightshade....

 

[Jemima]

These are the continuing results of 4 weeks of GABA.

Hey JayCS,

Are you still happy with your GABA process? I'd love to hear how you're getting on now, and if you're still taking it!

I'm working my way through a mighty supplement experiment, and GABA's a little ahead on my list.

Thanks

 

[JayCS]

Hey Jemima - thx for asking! Yep, with GABA itself I am. :-D No further side effects have cropped up. I've read up that habituation may become a problem. So after 1 positive month, I'm starting afresh, opening the 750mg capsules and taking 100-200mg before sleep if I feel very awake when I wake up (but before 3am), according to need. I've done it twice now and it is absolutely easy to twist them open, take an amount I feel fits, tonight I took 200mg before sleep and then another 100mg at 2:00. Doing this was recommended by my sleep lab psychiatrist, based on my positive experience up to now. (He still wants me to try levodopa (RLS?) too, starting with small doses as I'm wary of the side effects; but I've gotta slow down my tests....)

The first 19 things above are still good! - As long as I pace well, don't do too much. But I can do quite a bit more, mentally & physically than before.
Continuing problems with the stuff I was adding tho. I'd replaced the glutamic acid by ashwagandha with the severe GI problems I've already mentioned. Then - as recommended in a recent GABA-study - 5-HTP; but that made me awake - read up that can happen too. Then tryptophan: GI once again, & drowsy in the daytime. I've used up my passionflower capsules (the alcoholic liquid wasn't too good on my stomach). So I'm now only testing around with the GABA, only magnesium (malate) added. No idea if the magnesium is helping. (Praps threonate'd be better for brain/sleep, but I can't afford to trade that for GI problems, which malate doesn't give me.)
I'm not nec finished with tryptophan: next time: capsules or powder in lesser dose with meals and liquid (read all that up, hours one end - really hard to find people who are as oversensitive as I am and still don't give up tryin'...)
Serrapeptase is still on my list, have to see about GI effects there too of course. The levodopa as mentioned. And testing reducing/leaving off selene for thyroid, and long-term ezetimib & atorvastatin for blood fast, all of which can make you tired.

 

[Jemima]

Thank you, that's so interesting!

If you don't mind me asking, is he prescribing levodopa specifically to target restless legs/sleep disturbance, or is that coming from a broader Fibro angle? I hadn't even heard of that one, so much appreciated!

I'm just starting Magnesium Glycinate, having had some successes - notably with CoQ10, ALA, and lithium orotate. Still a way to go though, so the experiment continues! After a decent stretch on Magnesium, I think I'm going to explore GABA next. It's so useful to read the experiences of others.

 

[JayCS]

Ask all you ever want, of course - it helps me understand where I am (plus it's fun thinking about these things together)... ;-).

Quick superficial answer: sleep. Deeper: We're puzzling bits from all areas together, detective work, to either alleviate single symptoms and if possible draw near to or find a deeper cause, when we've praps something found what they have in common.

Longer: My sleep lab results (a year ago) show no RLS. But my description that at least 1 of the times most nights I wake up is an urge to move/get up and that seems to come from my lower back. So he's hypothesizing that it may be a vague or indirect or analogue, whatever to RLS, so maybe an RLS-med can help reduce it, plus act as piece in the diagnostic puzzle.
Similarly he can rule out direct narcolepsy. But frequent dead-tiredness to him sounds a bit like it, and more than just needing more sleep.
(Altogether he's thinking together with me in a differentiated way, that there are several separate factors involved which each for themselves wdnt be a problem, but together tear many holes in my nights and days. When he heard GABA was helping he said "I'm thinking, I'm thinking..." whilst examining my old test results. When I described my bladder problems last time, he thought thru how to possibly get a handle on it, but concluded it probably cdn't be influenced. Dummy forget to tell him that GABA helps it, but we had enough to talk. I phoned once to complain that his bills are too low (20€) - they waived it. When I repeated that to my wife this time she grinned: Well, praps cos it's more of an expert discussion...

Good luck with magnesium. Magnesium, in my case malate, I think I've mentioned, didn't help, but I've started it up again together with the GABA all the same. CoQ10 also nothing. Alpha-lipoic acid & lithium orotate sound interesting for bp & neuropathy, if I had that I'd try them too. BTW - As you're not in the US, you might be able to get Levodopa like I do with Benserazid.

 

[Jemima]

Ask all you ever want, of course - it helps me understand where I am (plus it's fun thinking about these things together)... ;-).

Thank you and ditto!

 

[JayCS]

Once doesn't count, but/and this is too good to be true...: Up early - after brilliant almost normal sleep, up 2x5', having taken 50mg levodopa (12,5 benzerazid) 1h before sleep, and 300mg GABA directly before. Dopamin plus serotonin...

 

[Jemima]

Once doesn't count, but/and this is too good to be true...: Up early - after brilliant almost normal sleep, up 2x5', having taken 50mg levodopa (12,5 benzerazid) 1h before sleep, and 300mg GABA directly before. Dopamin plus serotonin...

May it be a sign of things to come!

 

[JayCS]

Update:
The effect of the levodopa didn't seem to hold on, or even seemed to worsen sleep, esp. the 'lower back unrest', so I stopped it first, but I will try it again soon to make sure, as my sleep is still far from perfect:
3-4 weeks ago was really good, using a protocol of things to do alternately and quicker every time I wake up, then 2 weeks ago (despite that and roughly the same supps) everything went wonky, I think cos I invisibly "overdid" it a bit every day (e.g. did something 2h instead of 1h (activity or mask-wearing) or too active after 7pm, altho each of these felt OK). This week I got it back under control.

But on <my fibro blog> yesterday I compared my many GABA benefits after 3 months with the original benefits: Almost everything (esp. things like stiffness & energy) has continued, a few even partly improved, a few partly decreased.

As I've written on other threads I've added roughly the same amount of "Jemima's" magnesium (bis)glycinate to the magnesium malate and slightly increased passionflower. I've also been brave enough to add glutamate, despite my impression that glutamic acid had increased the frequency of my focal seizures. Trudy Scott had pointed out that the two are not the same, and it's not glutamic acid that is usually recommended. To make sure tho, I've started increasing the GABA as that is the antagonist of glutamate and still had none since April 23rd, without even an aura or inclination, 3 months is really good. (I was even wondering if the increase of the focal seizures was even due to the GABA and also that maybe that this side effect would be worth it just the same, at least until I'd found another workaround.)
I feel like an Alex in Wonderland...

 

[Jemima]

Amazing, JayCS - thanks for the update. I'm really glad that the GABA is still working so well, and hope that the glutamate agrees with you! May you float down the rabbit hole to land in a wonderful new world with far less symptoms!

P.S. Lol on the "Jemima's"! Perhaps I should launch my own brand?