I am a recently diagnosed man and frustrated with my family's understanding

[Jemima]

You want people to acknowledge that you know how you feel, what you can and cannot do, and do not need advice!

I like the point that I imagine you intend - that sometimes we absolutely want people to simply recognise our feelings and autonomy - but surely telling someone what they want is akin to telling then what to do?

Both are things that none of us can know for sure on behalf of another person. The good thing is that advising is not the same as telling. Advice can be taken or left. We can try to advise when we think it might help someone, but that person should feel empowered to do with those ideas as they wish. Sometimes, another person's advice can help us solidify our own resolve, even if it takes us in an entirely different direction.

It's a good insight though; to be able to reflect on whether we want more input or whether we want someone to not shoot down our instincts, or even to tell us that those instincts are valid. Definitely worth highlighting! Of course, sometimes advice can also highlight a path we hadn't yet thought of

 

[JayCS]

Aw, you're all getting me going (and learning) deeper again about kinds of advice....

Spoiler: The German phrase "Auch Ratschläge sind Schläge" is actually a misunderstanding.

There's a seemingly clever German saying I've even used myself "Auch Ratschläge sind Schläge", playing on the fact that Schläge is the word for "blows", so Ratschläge would mean "blows of advice", sounding aggressive. So saying this means to advise not to give advice, like in counselling settings. However the German word actually comes from meaning "defining" who was to take part in a council of some kind, to advise each other. I've just realized it's made absurd by the fact that the German word for suggestion is "Vorschlag", so even that also has a "blow" in it. Actually it means fore- or pre-advice.

Advice may stop people from developing and changing, that's why counsellors prefer suggestions. But same here: we do usually make only suggestions or write how we/'d go about things, which - as fibromites are - always presupposes me being different from you. Even tho a lot of us, like inotazo here, are wishing/looking for (fairly) straight advice, so nothing paternalistic (& maternalistic? ) or patronizing (& matronizing? ), no space to be offended. Those who do get offended it seems are deeming themselves above the others and not capable of taking advice, which also usually shows in the way they actually "give" advice themselves.... And if confronted with unasked for advice it's slickest & mature to find something good about it, something to learn, whilst putting it in its place. Rather like all "mistakes."

Spoiler: In some contexts, 1) "provision of information" seems the best form of advice, rather than 2) recommending for or 3) against a decision or 4) how to go about making a decision.

Wikipedia tells us "Dalal and Bonaccio (2010) found that decision-makers reacted most favorably to the provision of information, because this form of advice not only increased decision accuracy but also allowed the decision-maker to maintain autonomy" - a 4th form of advice as opposed to 1) recommending a particular course of action, or 2) against one, or 3) recommending how to go about making a decision.

 

[Jemima]

Advice may stop people from developing and changing, that's why counsellors prefer suggestions.

That's interesting - I would have considered advice and suggestions the very same thing, but suppose there's more nuance than that! Either way, I'm optimistic that people here are generally trying to help, and come from an angle of understanding - or at the very least a better appreciation than most that we can't fully understand!

 

[wiserlady]

I get your point. But we are all different. I never need advice. If I am unsure about something I research it and work it out myself, but more often than not have already done all that. If I still want an opinion I would ask my husband, he is very intelligent and knowledgeable and knows me far better and knows my situation etc far better than anyone else, so he is far more likely to say something that makes sense. I've found that whenever people gave me unasked for advice it was always ridiculous, either ignoring half of what I told them and not looking at the whole picture, not practical, pointless or whatever. Very often it would have been far too expensive or time consuming and all leading to no result anyway. I end up sitting there thinking to myself why didn't x realise that is not practical? But the thing is that a lot of people get great buzz and feel important when they give advice, whether it is asked for or not, whether it is sensible or not, they do it for their own sake as much as for the other person. I have often put posts where I have said I do not want any advice whatsoever, and still people have given me (daft) advice. A wise person would work out how intelligent the person posting is first, and how knowledgeable they are, before maybe offering them advice. I know people who can barely blow their nose without advice on it, and others who could rule the world and end world war 3 without advice.

 

[wiserlady]

Yes Jemima.

But sometimes people who have little experience of something assume everyone else is the same. i.e. a youngster who is still at school forgets the other person is three times their age, has set up and run very successful businesses, employs a lot of people and is used to sorting out problems, making decisions and all sorts they are not used to or good at. Hence when we are speaking about a tangent that comes off of the illness part - the real reason for the forum - they may have a far better understanding and idea of how to deal with parents, or money and other bits that are part of that person's life. Just as some of us have wisdom and knowledge about fibro that others do not have some of us are more knowledgeable and wise about the other bits too. Due to more experience, qualifications, age etc. I probably know a lot less about fibro than you Jemima, but that does not mean that I know less about all of the other things too. The guy who was ranting about his parents .. that was about his parents not fibro.

 

[Jemima]

Apologies, Wiserlady, I didn't set out to offend, but hope that anyone reading here would not feel less confident to ask or share - no matter their age or experience. Best of luck to you.

 

[wiserlady]

You too Jemima.

It's good to meet you here even if it has been a bumpy hello. Happy New Year.

 

[JayCS]

I never need advice. If I am unsure about something I research it and work it out myself, but more often than not have already done all that. If I still want an opinion I would ask my husband, he is very intelligent and knowledgeable and knows me far better and knows my situation etc far better than anyone else, so he is far more likely to say something that makes sense. I've found that whenever people gave me unasked for advice it was always ridiculous, either ignoring half of what I told them and not looking at the whole picture, not practical, pointless or whatever. Very often it would have been far too expensive or time consuming and all leading to no result anyway. I end up sitting there thinking to myself why didn't x realise that is not practical? But the thing is that a lot of people get great buzz and feel important when they give advice, whether it is asked for or not, whether it is sensible or not, they do it for their own sake as much as for the other person. I have often put posts where I have said I do not want any advice whatsoever, and still people have given me (daft) advice. A wise person would work out how intelligent the person posting is first, and how knowledgeable they are, before maybe offering them advice. I know people who can barely blow their nose without advice on it, and others who could rule the world and end world war 3 without advice.

We are slightly off-topic, because inotazo did ask for advice, then again not, because he suffers/-ed from advice given by people who don't understand, mean well, but don't know/think well. So advice seems slightly complicated - interestingly.

Spoiler: And as advice is a basis for forums, seldom explicitly talked about, I do think it's worth getting sorted.

You've again sparked quite a few ideas for myself, since I partly identify with it, then again not, which is a challenge - which I like to learn from. I am similar in that I hardly ever start a thread myself, because if I have an open question I search for all background information myself and that gives me the feeling that I can solve and then post the problem myself. However this actually secretly embarrasses me, because I don't want to come over as a know-it-all. And on second thoughts: I listen as close as I can to everyone that asks earnest questions (I'm "a listener" I spose) and that spawns questions in me which I then try to solve and post an answer about. Since I'm learning and have often been able to apply the ideas to myself sooner or later, these questions and actually turn into indirect suggestions/advice for me. Also when I make suggestions to others after having gleaning and sorting loads of information not just this gleaning, but the answering process turns into advice to myself. Maybe you mean something similar when you "often put posts" that you don't want advice - it does confuse me when people do that - contradicting what I said above, because I actually almost always "want advice", even if I don't ask for it. Also there is a social component for me - if "a child" gives me a present which I don't need or want, then I may try to put it to good use or put it away, but I am thankful for it and show that. I also am above being offended if "a child" offers me advice - sometimes this can be hilarious, but I am beyond this becoming a problem for me. So I don't actually understand your examples (ridiculous, ignoring, impractical, pointless, resultless etc.) as well as it not fitting to my experience. If something is like this, I explain it in simple terms, or if not possible just say thank you, I'll think about it. I never end up thinking something like 'why did I did not realize that' and blaming the advice/advisor or myself: Obviously I didn't know it all and just tried it. If I wasn't capable of seeing that other things are previous in the line, but that's definitely not their fault, not their responsibility, it's mine. And my experience is: my friends, altho not knowing my situation or much about fibro gave me excellent ideas which I am still using to this day. Altogether 5x better than seemingly knowing docs, praps comparable to forum ideas. When I first was given a yoga DVD/book by a mate, I put it into the corner - not feeling the least understood. Half a year later and since then, I use those exercises daily. With an open mind but stable principles I try to see no advice as "daft". Each of us is responsible for not ending up carrying the donkey like in Aesop's fable - that doesn't make the suggestions of the onlookers wrong, it just goes to show the complexity of the situation and different opinions.
I confess: Yes, I do get a buzz and feel important when I give advice, I do it for my own sake as much as for the other person. And because I know that and think that is completely OK, I understand when someone tries to give advice, whether it is sensible or not. It is a feeling of wanting to help, to feel good and do some good, also to feel better. It's very hard to listen to people rant and just say "I understand" without offering the hope of an idea. Only when someone says "thanks, but" and that is then ignored and the person and their decision is not accepted, does it get bad. And I'd extend that to inotazo's situation too.
I'd beg to differ on the final statement, if I understood it correctly: I know a lot of people who can start WW3 without advice, but I know no-one who can end it or rule the world without advice.

 

[sunkacola]

Apologies, Wiserlady, I didn't set out to offend, but hope that anyone reading here would not feel less confident to ask or share - no matter their age or experience. Best of luck to you.

I agree, Jemima.
I think it is very important to remember that everyone is here to try to help, and we want everyone to feel free and confident in offering whatever suggestions they think will help without fearing some kind of negative reprisal from the person they are trying to help.

 

[sunkacola]

I get your point. But we are all different. I never need advice. If I am unsure about something I research it and work it out myself, but more often than not have already done all that. If I still want an opinion I would ask my husband, he is very intelligent and knowledgeable and knows me far better and knows my situation etc far better than anyone else, so he is far more likely to say something that makes sense. I've found that whenever people gave me unasked for advice it was always ridiculous, either ignoring half of what I told them and not looking at the whole picture, not practical, pointless or whatever. Very often it would have been far too expensive or time consuming and all leading to no result anyway. I end up sitting there thinking to myself why didn't x realise that is not practical? But the thing is that a lot of people get great buzz and feel important when they give advice, whether it is asked for or not, whether it is sensible or not, they do it for their own sake as much as for the other person. I have often put posts where I have said I do not want any advice whatsoever, and still people have given me (daft) advice. A wise person would work out how intelligent the person posting is first, and how knowledgeable they are, before maybe offering them advice. I know people who can barely blow their nose without advice on it, and others who could rule the world and end world war 3 without advice.

I do not think anyone here is offering suggestions or advice in order to "get a buzz", or to help themselves, especially those of us who dedicate a lot of time here to be of service to others. It is sad to think that you do not have experience with people who actually want to help others and not get anything in return, such as people who spend a lot of their time volunteering in one way or another. To think that all of those people are actually doing it for themselves and not for the benefit of others is sad.

If advice or suggestions are given that are not practical, it is only because the one offering them is not there in the other person's home. We can only do so much when it is over the internet. But we are all doing our best and no one deserves to be chastised for trying to help. A person may not realize that something is impractical because they have never met you, and that is not their fault.

Please be aware that no one is trying to offend you or to tell you what to do. As has been said before, you can take what you want and leave the rest, and it is not necessary for you to say unkind things to those who are here to help. It is good always to remember that, however far someone's comment or advice may fall flat, it was well-intentioned and that should be taken into consideration. Most people here, if the advice doesn't fit, will simply say so politely. Sometimes that makes an opening for people to offer other ideas that actually do help. Even if the advice you get is not useful to you, to reply with anger or insult, or to call it ridiculous, is not necessary or nice.

 

[wiserlady]

I do not think anyone here is offering suggestions or advice in order to "get a buzz", or to help themselves, especially those of us who dedicate a lot of time here to be of service to others. It is sad to think that you do not have experience with people who actually want to help others and not get anything in return, such as people who spend a lot of their time volunteering in one way or another. To think that all of those people are actually doing it for themselves and not for the benefit of others is sad.

If advice or suggestions are given that are not practical, it is only because the one offering them is not there in the other person's home. We can only do so much when it is over the internet. But we are all doing our best and no one deserves to be chastised for trying to help. A person may not realize that something is impractical because they have never met you, and that is not their fault.

Please be aware that no one is trying to offend you or to tell you what to do. As has been said before, you can take what you want and leave the rest, and it is not necessary for you to say unkind things to those who are here to help. It is good always to remember that, however far someone's comment or advice may fall flat, it was well-intentioned and that should be taken into consideration. Most people here, if the advice doesn't fit, will simply say so politely. Sometimes that makes an opening for people to offer other ideas that actually do help. Even if the advice you get is not useful to you, to reply with anger or insult, or to call it ridiculous, is not necessary or nice.

I do not think anyone here is offering suggestions or advice in order to "get a buzz", or to help themselves, especially those of us who dedicate a lot of time here to be of service to others. It is sad to think that you do not have experience with people who actually want to help others and not get anything in return, such as people who spend a lot of their time volunteering in one way or another. To think that all of those people are actually doing it for themselves and not for the benefit of others is sad.

If advice or suggestions are given that are not practical, it is only because the one offering them is not there in the other person's home. We can only do so much when it is over the internet. But we are all doing our best and no one deserves to be chastised for trying to help. A person may not realize that something is impractical because they have never met you, and that is not their fault.

Please be aware that no one is trying to offend you or to tell you what to do. As has been said before, you can take what you want and leave the rest, and it is not necessary for you to say unkind things to those who are here to help. It is good always to remember that, however far someone's comment or advice may fall flat, it was well-intentioned and that should be taken into consideration. Most people here, if the advice doesn't fit, will simply say so politely. Sometimes that makes an opening for people to offer other ideas that actually do help. Even if the advice you get is not useful to you, to reply with anger or insult, or to call it ridiculous, is not necessary or nice.

Yes I know. And over the years I have run a very busy charity single handedly, with a lot of people working for me part time. Plus trained a lot of people to work on a charity hot line. I have always worked more than full time hours, despite being in my sixties with health problems. You know sunkacola, we all are different, I will not tell you what to post and please do not tell me what to post or how to feel. If anyone here does not like or agree with someone they can put them on ignore.

 

[sunkacola]

Yes I know. And over the years I have run a very busy charity single handedly, with a lot of people working for me part time. Plus trained a lot of people to work on a charity hot line. I have always worked more than full time hours, despite being in my sixties with health problems. You know sunkacola, we all are different, I will not tell you what to post and please do not tell me what to post or how to feel. If anyone here does not like or agree with someone they can put them on ignore.

Once again you are saying that someone is telling you what to do, when that is not the case. I certainly would never tell you what to feel, and am not doing that now. I suggested that it would be advisable for you to be kind to people who are trying to help.

I personally will not put you on ignore because I am a moderator here and I read everything so that I can do my job.
As moderator I am trying to help you with regard to your posts, because if you try to make unpleasant or insulting posts they will be deleted, as you may have noticed. I was simply trying to let you know so that you could avoid that happening.
You are always welcome to your feelings and opinions, of course...but not to say hurtful things to others here. Sometimes it is better to say nothing at all. I am sure you understand.

 

[wiserlady]

Once again you are saying that someone is telling you what to do, when that is not the case. I certainly would never tell you what to feel, and am not doing that now. I suggested that it would be advisable for you to be kind to people who are trying to help.

I personally will not put you on ignore because I am a moderator here and I read everything so that I can do my job.
As moderator I am trying to help you with regard to your posts, because if you try to make unpleasant or insulting posts they will be deleted, as you may have noticed. I was simply trying to let you know so that you could avoid that happening.
You are always welcome to your feelings and opinions, of course...but not to say hurtful things to others here. Sometimes it is better to say nothing at all. I am sure you understand.

Yes I am allowed my feelings. But feelings lead to actions or less actions. I came here to try this forum to see if it would be a good use of some of my spare time. There are a lot of health forums out there, some of which I own and run myself on my own websites. I watch how much time I give to everything and anyone carefully, because I get hundreds of emails every day from people who would like to be my clients and pay me for my time, and hundreds of other opportunities of ways to spend my time. This forum attracted me because it was for fibro, but I am already on three other forums for fibro. I am sorry, do not take this personally or negatively, but I will not be returning here. I feel as if people, who are probably a third of my age and nowhere near as busy as me talk down to me here and it would be a lot more beneficial for me to spend the time on something else. No doubt as a moderator you will not publish this post, that is up to you, who cares. Happy new year all.

 

[sunkacola]

Best of luck to you in your endeavors. Too bad this forum did not work out for you, but it sounds as though you have plenty of others to attend to. We all wish you well.

 

[wiserlady]

Best of luck to you in your endeavors. Too bad this forum did not work out for you, but it sounds as though you have plenty of others to attend to. We all wish you well.

Wish you all well too. I spend very little time on the forums. Most of my time goes on running my businesses, helping my clients, dealing with my staff etc. And it's good to get away from the computer! Take care.