Do you have to feel worse to feel better?

[sweetkamie20]

Hi, guys

I have heard different philosophies about how much backlash a person should tolerate from a supplement. Has anyone here ever found a supplement that made you feel really bad for a long while but once your body got adjusted was really helpful? Thanks in advance, friends!

 

[JayCS]

After about 60 supps for fibro & MCAS and >>50 for others: nope, not for me.
60% good, 10% bad, 30% nothing. Occasionally worsening, some lost an initial effect.
But the med notorious for exactly doing this, is St. Amand's controversial guaifenesin - not recommended.
I seem to remember L D N might too. But both aren't supps, they're meds.
Homeopathy also has a built in initial worsening, but even there it never happened to me.
I always consider it happening for that and herbs, vitamins & minerals, but it didn't.
And a few forms of PT have had that effect on me too, like whole body cryotherapy needed getting used to. But for most it was just the case of starting low and going slow, same as for some supps, esp. the flushing version of B3 (altho I stopped it anyone and am trying flush free now).

 

[cookiebaker]

define "a long while" - are we talking a week? 2 weeks? 6 weeks? how long specifically?

if something is making you feel "really bad" for longer than 2 weeks, i think i would discontinue

 

[sweetkamie20]

After about 60 supps for fibro & MCAS and >>50 for others: nope, not for me.

So no, you haven't noticed a huge improvement after an initial intro period?

60% good, 10% bad, 30% nothing. Occasionally worsening, some lost an initial effect.
But the med notorious for exactly doing this, is St. Amand's controversial guaifenesin - not recommended.
I seem to remember L D N might too. But both aren't supps, they're meds.
Homeopathy also has a built in initial worsening, but even there it never happened to me.

This is what I've heard about homeopathy...worse then better. These flares can be so bad it's hard not to cry...I take 1/30th of what's recommended. 3 drops once a day, not 10 drops three times...I will switch to 1 drop...

whole body cryotherapy needed getting used to. But for most it was just the case of starting low and going slow, same as for some supps, esp.

How big was the negative reaction and did you notice some positives even in the beginning?

As always, thanks Jay

 

[sweetkamie20]

define "a long while" - are we talking a week? 2 weeks? 6 weeks? how long specifically?

When the reactions are their worst I take a break from them and usually it's after just one use. I just can't bring myself to take more cuz the flare was too bad. I sort of go with my gut from then on but if it's real bad it might take me a year to try again. When the reactions are middle of the road bad, I take a break and go with my gut after that...middle of the road bad sux, too, because I am still unable to do most things. If I knew that I might feel bad for 2 weeks but there's a possibility it could work after that I might try to talk myself into that misery

if something is making you feel "really bad" for longer than 2 weeks, i think i would discontinue

2 weeks -Message received . Thx cookie baker!

 

[sunkacola]

In the case of homeopathy, it can make a person feel worse before better. But of course homeopathy is entirely different from supplements.

If it is a supplement, I sincerely doubt it.
If the supplement makes you feel worse, stop taking it. Most supplements probably shouldn't be taken unless you know that your body has a deficit in that particular vitamin or mineral, unless it is one that you know for certain cannot be harmful if you take too much. I don't know what you mean by "a long time", but if it is more than a week I would stop taking it.

 

[cookiebaker]

2 weeks -Message received . Thx cookie baker!

I am not a doctor, so take that advice with a grain or two of salt...

a lot would depend on what exactly one is talking about as well...
If it is a supplement that is making you feel bad, then dont take it, as sunkacola says

I know there are some prescribed meds that can have this kind of effect until they get stabilized in the system, but that is different.

 

[JayCS]

So no, you haven't noticed a huge improvement after an initial intro period?

No, never, not even the slightest. Unless you count the 3 smaller side effects in the first week of GABA. But there I also had the huge improvement at the same time.

This is what I've heard about homeopathy...worse then better. These flares can be so bad it's hard not to cry...I take 1/30th of what's recommended. 3 drops once a day, not 10 drops three times...I will switch to 1 drop...

Assuming homeopathy works and this is working and not something else: This intensity worries me, and it'd only comfort me if you were in the hands of a knowledgeable practitioner, an experienced specialist for homeopathy. Single substances in high potencies (I'd call anything above D12 high) need to be chosen well, a real homeopath decides that after several hours of questioning. In their theory the wrong substance can possibly cause other sicknesses instead of healing. And if it's a low potency (numbers 12 or less, I'd be surprised that the "homeopathic aggravation" is that strong...
The aggravation for acute symptoms is only a few hours, and for chronic symptoms can be longer, sometimes days (max. 12, I'd say). But without an expert I wouldn't recommend going longer than 2-3 days, if at all. In these cases experts would examine if the type of aggravation is fitting to what was intended, and might also give some kind of placebo or other support to curb them a bit.

How big was the negative reaction and did you notice some positives even in the beginning?

Cryotherapy I started at -130°C, but had to go up to -110°C first, before I could gradually go back down to -120, -130, and then -150 inside a few months. But the negative reaction was only an hour or two. And yes, there were a few positives, that seemed to make it feel worth it, and it then was, eventually, until it stopped working well enough after almost a year.
My negative reaction to Western acupuncture took 1-3 days and never got better even after the 9th time, there was no positive, the doc said we should only have done it 5x if it hadn't helped (she was sort of attentive, but towards the wrong things).
My negative reaction to Chinese acupuncture (& first cupping) could and can take a few hours and there were some positives for my fatigue right from the start, just not stable, and I've managed to stabilize it by using more cold showers.
One good osteopath that used to help me, altho it hurt a bit, was no longer right for me once fibro started, hurt, but didn't help. But another was, helped, and hardly hurt at all....

As always, thanks Jay

Ever welcome!
Whether from a supp or homeopathy, my suggestion here with such a flare, would be to stop after a few days and only do it together with an expert for it.

 

[sweetkamie20]

I am not a doctor, so take that advice with a grain or two of salt...

I thought your name was DOCTOR Cookiebaker! What happened?!

I know there are some prescribed meds that can have this kind of effect until they get stabilized in the system, but that is different.

Thats what I was thinking - some meds are rough in the beginning but the negatives wear off. Assumed supps worked that way but sounds like I assumed wrong

Thanks, doc

 

[sweetkamie20]

In the case of homeopathy, it can make a person feel worse before better. But of course homeopathy is entirely different from supplements.

Yeah, was thinking of homeopathy when I asked but supplements, too

If the supplement makes you feel worse, stop taking it.

I don't know what you mean by "a long time", but if it is more than a week I would stop taking it.

Okay, This helps me change my expectations. Thanks sun

 

[sweetkamie20]

No, never, not even the slightest. Unless you count the 3 smaller side effects in the first week of GABA. But there I also had the huge improvement at the same time.

Okay, gotcha!

Assuming homeopathy works and this is working and not something else: This intensity worries me, and it'd only comfort me if you were in the hands of a knowledgeable practitioner, an experienced specialist for homeopathy.

Shes super experienced...there's got to be something else going on with me. I think it's really MCAS or toxin overload since most foreign substances send me into a flare. I'm looking at gentle detox options now...

The aggravation for acute symptoms is only a few hours, and for chronic symptoms can be longer, sometimes days (max. 12, I'd say). But without an expert I wouldn't recommend going longer than 2-3 days, if at all. In these cases experts would examine if the type of aggravation is fitting to what was intended, and might also give some kind of placebo or other support to curb them a bit.

Thats helpful. I just kept wondering, "Should I just feel like death for 2 weeks because it might become helpful?"

Cryotherapy I started at -130°C, but had to go up to -110°C first, before I could gradually go back down to -120, -130, and then -150 inside a few months. But the negative reaction was only an hour or two. And yes, there were a few positives, that seemed to make it feel worth it, and it then was, eventually, until it stopped working well enough after almost a year.

Why did it stop working do you think?

My negative reaction to Western acupuncture took 1-3 days and never got better even after the 9th time, there was no positive, the doc said we should only have done it 5x if it hadn't helped (she was sort of attentive, but towards the wrong things).
My negative reaction to Chinese acupuncture (& first cupping) could and can take a few hours and there were some positives for my fatigue right from the start, just not stable, and I've managed to stabilize it by using more cold showers.
One good osteopath that used to help me, altho it hurt a bit, was no longer right for me once fibro started, hurt, but didn't help. But another was, helped, and hardly hurt at all....

Some practitioners are light years better than others, or at least more familiar with what you need

Ever welcome!
Whether from a supp or homeopathy, my suggestion here with such a flare, would be to stop after a few days and only do it together with an expert for it.

Thx Jay

 

[JayCS]

Why did it stop working do you think?

Mainly cos it'd plateaued at 35% energy. So kept it up before acupressure to maintain that.
Then stopped both cos the jab-MCAS made the acupressure hurt while at the same time she'd got my local pains down to 15-20% and I can now get the rest down to 5-10% via self-treatments.
And didn't start again cos I wanted to feel what the Chinese acupuncture was doing and then balanced that with the cold showers instead.
In a break from acupuncture (she was sick) I did think about trying it on the MCAS-fibro-fatigue which is more severe than the fibro alone.
But working at optimizing the cold showers precisely when I need them is much more on target.
Same as lying down doing Yoga Nidra yesterday immediately after a gig and this morning then after table tennis immediately cold showering.
Same using it to reset my body temperature if possible before it's confronted with a temperature plunge outdoors/airing. Or as soon as possible when I realize the pain from the cold air has crept in.
Timing's one of many big advantages of becoming independent of all therapists/docs.

Some practitioners are light years better than others, or at least more familiar with what you need

Yes, but here in the case of acupuncture it was trialling a different type which necessitates changing PT.
(I'm wondering if the thin needles of Western acupuncture just tickle & annoy my pain system.)
And in the case of the osteopath I could and would have tried my previous one if I'd had no choice.
The new one was a stroke of luck. He was working in a normal PT practice recommended to me, and I was assigned to him after a few sessions with the boss who was a fibro-know-it-all and mainly hurt me.
He hadn't even finished his osteopathy exams, but was highly motivated to try all he had learnt whilst at the same time prepared to listen to my body. Unfortunately not necessarily me, but by "intuition", which meant he often didn't solve a pain that had been annoying me, but improved something else. An osteopath in the fibro/rheum clinic couldn't help much cos it was only 2 sessions - I had to repeatedly ask to get the 2nd one, not much of a learning curve for him possible, but nice, not bad and with good recommendations where I could go to in my home town...
The acupressurist listened to my body and me too, so was the most effective of my PTs, but like the cryotherapy it plateaued, however at a high level....